Scientists and clerics believe in materialism.

Scientists and clerics - Comment on 2012 February 10

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2012 February 10

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Scientists and clerics have in common that both of them have a belief in a religion. The scientists in their scientific religion and that is the religion of materialism and the clerics in their religious religion and that is the religion of worldliness and that is basically also a belief in the material world and therefore also in materialism. Read more:

This website often criticizes clerics and scientists and this can be actually quite funny when one observes these people and their ideas but the matter is rather serious because these people claim to know the truth and also claim to lead people to the truth. Now the clerics are actual worth because they also claim to be able to lead people to God and that is exactly what they do not do. They actually do the opposite and help people go in the other direction, not heaven but hell. And this claiming to know God and being able to lead others to God is what will affect them rather badly on the other side, because there they will have no excuse because they had access to the truth while on earth and did not make use of it but twisted it around in order to have material advantages.

Now we have been dealing with the Seth material which Jane Roberts brought to us and which her husband Rob Butts recorded and at one stage Jane Roberts was not used by Seth but by another deceased person and I want to bring a quote from this communication because it gives an insight into what the cleric experiences on the other side.

The person speaking through Jane Roberts was Malba Bronson, who told Rob that she had died in South Dakota in 1946 at the age of forty-six.

So here an excerpt from the year 1964 of what Robert F. Butts recorded about Malba:

Malba said that she is still a woman where she is; she can see herself; she is not transparent for instance. She can dematerialize however. She sometimes sees others, including Jane’s old friend Father Trainor; he is still fat.

Malba was highly amused at the plight of the clergy of different faiths, who had died. Here they were after death, and at least on her plane it was nothing like they had said it would be while living on earth. Some of them were very angry, others were puzzled and hurt, trying to explain it all.

Now Seth made some comments about Malba and her situation and here an excerpt of this, from the year 1964:

Malba of the Midplane was your apt description. The midplane is indeed an excellent description of the semi-plane which she now inhabits. It is a waiting plane for personalities at certain stages of development.

The midplane contains a conglomeration of fragments . . . who have not attained sufficient knowledge or manipulability to progress further at this point. They may be at various stages of development, but, usually, they have attained only a fair level of achievement. They have not excelled, neither have they ‘failed.’ They are working out problems of their own. They are not as yet committed to the next plane of their advancement.

They can be of benefit along certain lines. The validity of their information may be excellent. On the other hand, it may be less than trustworthy at times, simply because their achievement level is not high. If they err, they do so through ignorance.

Now this description of one of the levels of ‘hell’ agrees quite well with the description Robert Monroe gave us (Creation – Part 3). Seth now is an ex-inhabitant of Earth, but Robert Monroe was still an inhabitant of this planet when he visited this midplane or what he calls the main ring. He was very much alive here on earth and he left his body here and travelled to this main ring and to other rings as well and then came and entered again his body and then later wrote books about his experiences. And such books like the books of Robert Monroe and the books about the Seth material are of course not read by clerics and scientist and such books are also condemned by them and people are warned not to read them and that is why they and the people who listen to them remain ignorant – and go to hell. The materialist of course do not believe in hell and this belief they believe in has the purpose to prevent them going to hell but a belief that something does not exists does not cause an existing thing now to disappear.

Now follows a statement from Jane Roberts:

Only the blindest egoism seems to me could dare to define reality by means of one’s own categories or to project one’s own narrowness and experience upon the rest of creation.

I am now bringing a statement from Seth from one of the earliest sessions. It is from the year 1963 and it describes with quite simple words that we do not see other worlds or universes and might not see life on other celestial bodies and might not even see life on this planet earth which does not belong to our plane:

Many inhabitable places would seem uninhabitable to you. Your senses can only see your own kind of life.

And now another statement from Seth but from the year 1965:

Why do you find the phrase solidified feeling outlandish? You both already understand that your plane is really composed of solidified thought. When your scientists get through with all their high fiddle-faddle they too will discover that this is the case, though woe to any one of them that dares breathe such a concept yet.

So this seems to be a nice description of the situation science is in at the moment, especially physics. The entry 2012 Jan 17 – The problems of the physicists suggested that physics might be at a turning point and in the entry 2011 Dec 24 – Prof Higg’s suggestion there is talk that physics has been in the shadow of biology for 30 years. The present subjects discussed in physics are such as LHC and Higgs boson and particles and neutrinos and speeds faster than light. And then we have an uninterrupted flow of news items reporting new discoveries in space. I now bring something from Seth from the year 1964, so information half a century old that might very well describe the situation we are now in.

So now follow four quotes from Seth:


Your scientists can count their elements. While they are on the wrong track they will discover more and more elements. That is, they will create more and discover more until they are ready to go out of their minds. Because what will happen is, they will always create camouflages of the real thing. And while they create instruments to deal with smaller and smaller particular particles, they will actually see smaller and smaller particles, seemingly without end.

As their instruments reach further into the universe they will “see,” and I suggest that you put the word see into quotes, they will “see” further and further but they will automatically subconsciously transform what they apparently see into the camouflage pattern with which they are familiar.

They will be and they are prisoners of their own tools. More galaxies will seemingly be discovered, more mysterious radio stars will be perceived, until the scientists realize that something is desperately wrong. Instruments designed to measure the vibrations with which scientists are familiar will be designed and redesigned. All sorts, finally, of seemingly impossible phenomena will be discovered with these instruments. The instruments will be designed to catch certain camouflages and since they are expertly thought out they will perform their function.

I do not want to get too involved. However by certain means the instruments will themselves transform data from terms that you cannot understand into terms that you can understand. Scientists do this all the time. However what this involves is a watering down of data, a simplification that distorts all out of shape, the original is hardly discernible when you are done. You are destroying the meaning in the translation.

The instruments themselves do this transforming, transforming say the idea of time or light years into sound patterns, radio waves and such. You lose too much in this process. What you get is so distorted that you have absolutely no near perception of the original. I will go into this much more deeply, as there is much more to be said on a technical level. But when you decipher one phenomena in terms of another you always lose sight of whatever glimmer of understanding may have reached you.

It is not a matter of inventing new instruments any longer. It is a matter of using the invisible instruments that you have. These instruments may be known and even examined by their effects. This material itself is evidence. It is like the branch that moves so that you know wind by its effects; and a windbag like me by the billowing gale of my monologues.


Scientists realize that the atmosphere of the earth is a distortion, or has a distorting effect upon their instruments. What they do not understand is that their instruments themselves are bound to be distortive. This cannot be emphasized too strongly. Any material physical instrument will have built-in distortive effects. The one instrument which is more important than any other and which has given you, that is mankind, all its breakthroughs and advance is the brain. Or rather the mind which contains the brain, and which is the meeting place of the inner and outer senses.

Einstein used the miraculous aspects of his mind. Parts of the mind are almost completely undistorted. The mind is distributed throughout the whole physical body. The mind builds up about it the physical camouflage necessary for existence on your physical plane. The mind receives data from the inner senses and forms the camouflage necessary. The mind unconsciously or unselfconsciously deals with basic laws according to the camouflage effect that is vital for survival on your physical plane. The mind is the tool which must be used.

The brain deals exclusively with camouflage patterns, transforming vitality into physical environmental camouflage patterns. The mind deals with basic principles inherent on all planes. The brain is itself part of the camouflage pattern, and can be interpreted and probed by physical instruments. The mind cannot be probed by physical instruments. It cannot even be found by physical instruments. The mind is the connective. It is here that the secrets of the universe will be discovered, and the mind itself is the tool of discovery.

The brain is of your plane. You may say that the brain is the mind in camouflage. Imagination belongs to the mind. It can be used by and is used by the brain for purposes of survival, and can sometimes be probed by physical instruments. That is physical instruments can be made to make the imagination move on occasion. But imagination is a property of mind, not brain, and no physical tool can force the imagination to conceive of an original conception or idea.

Physical tools may be used to force the imagination to move along in terms of its owner’s personal memories, but it cannot be forced to move along the lines of conceptual thought, because the imagination is in reality a connective fiber between the physical individual and the nonphysical entity.

Mental enzymes have a chemical effect or reaction on your plane. That is they can be observed on your plane through their chemical effect in it. But the effect itself is a distortion. On other planes the distortion effect may not be chemical at all. I have spoken of your plane rather than of your planet because earth is one of the planets that contain many planes.


The subconscious is a property of the mind, and is to a strong degree independent of Camouflage.


The mind contains the brain. Material which comes from the so-called subconscious comes from that part of the mind which knows no boundaries, either of time or space, and in a deeper sense knows no boundaries of species or planes in any manner. The simple fact is that you are using this portion of the mind as a tool. Exercising the brain exercises the mind also, but the mind has abilities of which the brain is ignorant.

This certainly is not meant to mean that the brain is useless, far from it. On your plane the brain is extremely important, and for your information many animals have a highly developed mind though their brains may be small.


So these were the four quotes from Seth. And now for a change something very short: Seth says consciousness cannot  n o t  b e.

Now follows a statement from Seth from the year 1970:

One could say that three-dimensional objects are produced in a similar way as the pictures, which you see on the television screen, with one big difference though. And when you are not tuned to that special frequency than you do not see the physical objects at all.

Every one of you unconsciously has an effect like a transformer which converts automatically highly developed, electromagnetic units into physical objects. You live in the middle of a “matter concentration system,” so to speak surrounded by weaker zones, in which what you would call “pseudo matter” asserts itself. Every thought and every emotion exist spontaneously as a simple or complex electromagnetic unit – which incidentally has not yet been ascertained by your scientists.

Now this thoughts being things is quite old information but for scientists it simply does not exist. And because for them the brain and the mind being more or less the same thing, they will of course have problems finding out about it because they think the mind does not exist as a thing separate from the brain. There are even books in libraries showing coloured picture of different thoughts, how thoughts look like in the spiritual realm.

And now two quotes from Seth about blind faith in science and blind faith in progress:

„Quite certainly mankind must have progressed since the Middle Ages,” although secretly they fear that this could still not be the case; or you refer to technical progress and say: “At least in this regard we have done very well.”
You may perhaps smile at the idea a Roman senator could, for instance, address the crowd with a microphone and his children could watch his entrance on television. But all this is misleading. There is no progress in your terms, just as little as there is time in your terms.
In every stage-play, individually or en masse, there are certain problems. Progress can be measured to what extent those problems have been solved or have not been solved.

To be exact progress has nothing to do with time, but with psychic and spiritual objective.

Here another one from Seth from 1970:

These projections are indeed sent out all the time. Increased developed scientific instruments, than you possess at the moment, would not just indicate the existence of these forms, but also be able to measure the vibrations in the different waves if intensity, which surround those physical objects, which are visible for you.

In the next quote Seth is mentioning the difference between true Christianity and organized Christianity:

Belief in good without belief in evil may per se seem to you to be unrealistic. However such belief is the best reassurance for your physical life and for the time after that.
It may insult your intellect, the experience of your physical senses may remonstrate and call this a lie, and still a belief in good without a belief in evil is in reality highly realistic, because it improves your health in life, frees you psychological of neurotic problems and gives you a feeling of lightness and spontaneity, which favours the development of your abilities. After death it offers protection against the belief in demons, hell and violent punishment. It prepares you for the insight into the true nature of reality. I know, that this opinion almost insults your spirit and that your senses seem to give the lie to it, but you should gradually have recognized, that your senses tell you many a thing what is not in accordance with truth; but I tell you that your physical senses perceive a reality which is the product of your conviction.
When you believe in evil, then you also perceive it of course. Your world has not yet risked the experiment which would redeem you. Christianity was only a distorted form of this basic truth – i.e. organized Christianity, which you know. Here I do not speak of the original teachings. They hardly had a chance, and later this subject will still be dealt with in this book.

When we talk about religion here on this webpage then we talk most of the time about the Christian religion and very seldom of other religions but now I want to bring a comment Seth makes about Buddhism:

The same applies for every of your great religions, although I already once said earlier that in general the Buddhists come closer to a description of the nature of reality. However they have not grasped the eternal validity of the soul in terms of its exquisite invulnerability, nor have they been in a position to develop a feeling for its uniqueness. But Buddha, like Christ, has interpreted that what he had almost grasped with the categories of your own reality. Not only with those of your own physical reality, but also with those of your probable physical reality.
The methods, the secret methods, which are behind all religions, were destined to show man the way into areas of understanding, which are independent of symbols and myths, into deeper insights, which could lead him both into the physical world known to him, as well as also out of it again. There are still a lot of undiscovered manuscripts in old monasteries, especially in Spain, which report about groups working underground within religious orders, which kept these secrets alive, while other monks copied old, Latin manuscripts.
There are certain tribes in Africa and Australia, which never learnt to write, but also knew about these secrets, and people who called themselves “speakers” who memorized them and distributed them towards the North, even until the northern parts of Europe, still before the times of Christ.

So Seth says the Buddhists come closer to a description of the nature of reality and this reminds me of what Jesus says about the Hindus or rather about Sanskrit in 2010 Oct 04 – The ancient language Sanskrit and Jakob Lorber.

Now back to what Seth says about the nature of reality:

You practise the use of your eyes so long until the outer pictures correspond with the inner patterns. This is of greatest importance and is not seen correctly by your scientists.

There was a lot of talk last year about the LHC and the Higgs boson and about neutrinos traveling faster than the speed of light and I am now bringing something from Seth dated the 14th of April 1971 that is related to all of this and I not only bring what Seth has to say but also the remarks in-between:


Good evening.

(“Good evening, Seth.”)

Perhaps we start immediately with the first question about which you spoke. (M.H.‘s question derived from a theory of which I also accidentally had heard: A group of scientists has postulated the existence of a class of subatomic particles called “tachyons” or “meta particle” which are to move faster than the speed of light.

According to the theory of relativity no particle can be accelerated until the speed of light because its mass would become infinitely vast with the approach to the speed of light; this barrier is however by-passed with the assertion the particles in question had an imaginary individual mass – no resting mass -, which speed is never less than the speed of light. M.H. now asked: “Are these particles moving faster than light identical with the electromagnetic energies or EE units about which Seth speaks at the beginning of “The Seth Material,” or related to these?”)

I told you some time ago that matter or form has many gradations, which you do not perceive. Many of these particles of which such structures are assembled move according to your ideas faster than the speed of your light.

Your light on its part represents however only a part of the spectrum, which is still greater than the one known to you; and when your scientists study the qualities of light then they can investigate this only in that form as it is incident in your three dimensional system. The same of course applies to the research of the structure of matter or form.

There are indeed universes which are assembled of such particles which move faster than light. Of some of these universes you would say that they superimpose your own universe spatially. Normally you would simply not perceive such particles as mass. But when the speed of these particles is however decreased enough then they are experienced by you as matter.

Some of these particles change their speed in a drastic way and also show themselves occasionally in your slower speed norm. This generally happens in cyclic form. The whirling centre of some of these particles has a much greater speed than its periphery. EE units result spontaneously from the electromagnetic reality which every consciousness sends out, similar to the breath that streams out of the physical body.

Therefore EE units are emanations of consciousness. The characteristics of these units are determined by the intensity of thoughts or emotions. When a certain degree of intensity is reached then they are driven towards physical realization. Whether they now take shape in your terms or not, in any case they appear as material smallest particles, as, let us say, latent matter or pseudo matter.

Some of them fall into the faster than light category and have a remarkable vitality in this framework. These particles moving faster than light then exists of course in their own gestalt. There is a broad spectrum of most different of such unit, which are all out of reach of your perception. To lump them all together would however be misleading because a wonderful principle of order is effective in all of this.

You do not face the existence of some of these units completely blindly, although you do not perceive them as mass. Many of them are interpreted by you as dreamlike events, as so-called hallucinations; and occasionally certain kinds of these units are understood by as time wise running movements.

All of them produce certain “atmospheric conditions” or throw reflexes, which redye the physical processes as you know them. Some of your own emotions advance into the reality of such systems and condense there to mass and form. With the creation and maintenance of your normal reality you adjust your daily orientated waking consciousness so that it can be active within the areas where it is used. Ideas and emotions which you want to realize physically bear mechanisms in them which let them find the right place within the electromagnetic field, that makes physical development possible.

(Break.) Your consciousness is however set up so that it also creates realities in other regions. In certain dreams and out of body experiences it moves faster than with the speed of light, and under such circumstances you are able to perceive some of these other forms of “mass or matter.”

The EE units are simply forms of reality in the process of coming into being: automatically thrown out seeds which are adapted to different environment conditions. Many of them appear in the physical system, while others on the other hand do not correspond at all to its prerequisites. Now there are some “enclosed” systems of reality, whose middle is formed by particles which are faster than light. These slow down rhythmically over great distances against the periphery until the smaller outer particles so to speak include the mass in the centre although they move much faster – even so in more close space.

As you perhaps are now able to understand the conduct of such units determines the typical camouflage structures of every given system, while inner identities and outer limitations are effectively fixed through their peripheral activities. General speaking and said with simple word, these are all variants of matter as you think of them. The same variety is found in negative matter or antimatter, which you in any case cannot perceive, and in the gradations of activity within these systems.

Basically however not one of these systems is closed. Energy flows unhindered from one into the other or rather penetrates every one of them. It is merely the camouflage structure which gives the impression as if it is about closed systems, and the law of inertia is not relevant. It only seems to have reality within your own system and due to your limited field of vision.

Now the permanency and relative stability of such “matter” in the other systems is exceptionally variable, in which the strength of all such manifestations is determined by the intensity of emotions. Your physical matter is built up by the invisible EE units. They are the essential and fundamental units from which every physical particle emerges which exists.

They are not perceivable physically. You only see the results. Because consciousness can travel faster than light it can, when it is not enclosed by the smaller particles of the body, become aware of many of these other realities. Without training it will however not know to interpret that what it sees. The physical brain is the mechanism with whose help thoughts and emotions are automatically changed into EE units which have the appropriate extent and the right dispensed intensity to be useable for the physical organism.

Now you can have a break.

(21.56 o’clock. Jane’s talk had varied between slower and faster speeds but her trance had been deep. When I told her the material has excellently answered the question, she replied: “I only know that I was far away …”

A note related to faster than light effect: On the Sunday following this session a leading New York newspaper reported astronomers had observed how two components of a quasar flew apart with a speed which apparently amounted to ten times of the speed of light. This is an astonishing discovery which is impossible according to physical laws.

Quasars – as it were stellar radio sources – are star systems which also send out extraordinary intensive radio radiation apart from light. Most scientists believe that they exist at the edge of the universe accessible to our observation. In this case they would be so remote from us that their energy has needed trillions of years to reach us. Resumption at 22.20 o’clock.)

These EE units are therefore the physical building blocks of matter.


So this was this quite lengthy quote from the session held on the 14th of April 1971.

Now we want to come back to scientists and clerics. Scientists and clerics are worldly people. And as long as they remain worldly people they will not really understand reality. Now scientists and clerics might realize this and try to get out of their carnality and become spiritual people or try to get into spiritual things and start to really become spiritual people. A scientist might succeed in this and there are probably scientists who are and have become spiritual, but a cleric can never become a spiritual person. He might also try to get into spiritual things but he will never succeed. Now this does not sound to be right. Why should a cleric not be able to leave his carnality behind and become spiritually alive? The reason is that the definition of carnality is based on this being a cleric. A cleric can only then become spiritually enlightened when he stops being a cleric. And that means he has to get out of him being part of organized Christianity. And this again shows that it is nearly impossible for him to do so because then he would lose all means of support and that of course means physical, material support. The only definition of a carnal Christian is the one in 1 Corinthians 3:1-4. And that definition is describing people who are part of denominations, who are part of organized Christianity. They are part of man-made organizations and they are following these man-made organizations and therefore they follow men instead of Christ. Men who follow men cannot follow Christ, another spiritual definition or rule, because they cannot have two masters, because no man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

With this contribution we now have six entries which deal with Seth material:
2012 Jan 25 (3) – The basic universe
2012 Jan 29 – Units of consciousness
2012 Jan 31 – How scientists should work
2012 Feb 02 – The nature and construction of matter
2012 Feb 06 – Evolution
2012 Feb 10 – Scientists and clerics.

We have mentioned Robert F. Butts here a couple of times and I will now bring some of his comments about scientists.

Here Rob Butts:

Even so, as I worked on this appendix I wondered again and again why I was investing so much time in it. The answer proved to be simple once I understood then I ended up shocked to discover how little real evidence there is to back up the idea of evolution, and fascinated by the limits of scientific thinking.

But some time passed before I realized that our ruling intellectual establishments were advancing notions about evolution that were not proven in scientific terms – then teaching these “facts” to succeeding generations. Finally, the humor of the whole situation got through to me: As some have very clearly noted, in the biological and earth sciences especially, circular reasoning often predominates: The theory of evolution is used to prove the theory of evolution.

What should our reaction be to all of this when we are dealing with scientists and clerics? We are dealing with comedians, dangerous comedians.


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