The warfare between the ram and the goat.

An He Goat Came From the West on the Face of the Whole Earth, and Touched Not the Ground - Comment on 2009 February 20

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2009 February 20
Is Iran the ram mentioned by the prophet Daniel? Read more:

On 16. February 2009 I read about the 7 years and that caused me to start to study the duration of the end-times and so I came to the Book of Daniel and there to chapter 8 where in verse 11 the event of the daily sacrifice that was taken away is mentioned and this caused me to read the chapter and about the warfare between the ram and the goat. And reading chapter 8 gave me the impression that the events described there could very well be part of the end-times.

In Daniel 8:2 a location is mentioned: Shushan or Susa. And that location is in what today is Iran. And in verse 4 attacks westward, and northward, and southward are mentioned. And that picture is more or less imaginable to happen considering the present political direction of that country. Verse 5 tells us of a force coming from the west, crossing the whole earth without touching the ground. Now little imagination is needed to imaging who this is and how he can attack without touching the ground.

In Daniel 8:5 the King James Version of the Bible says: "And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between the eyes."

If we assume that the times of the end are now or are very nearby then this force, this goat, coming (1) from the west, coming (2) from the other side of the world, and (3) not touching the ground, could be a well known political power, world power.

Another important pointer is the name of this force: goat. Its significance comes from the end result of the last judgement: the separation of sheep and goats.

Matthew 25:32-33: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Now in Matthew 25:41 it is quite clearly stated who the goats are: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.

So this western power, the goat, defeats the ram, probably Iran.

In Daniel 8:17 it is clearly stated by Gabriel that this vision of Daniel is meant for the end of times: O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

And in Daniel 8:19 Gabriel repeats it, the word end is used two times:

And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.

And then in verse 20 he explains who the ram is:

The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Now Media is the biblical term for the Kurds. And the Kurds are living now in several countries in that area. Since decades we hear of the conflicts between the Turks and the Kurds. The Kurds are a quite strong group of people in Iraq. And they live in other countries of that region like Iran. And Persia is just the country that now has the name Iran.

In Daniel 8:21 Gabriel explains who the goat is:

And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Grecia is probably Greece. And Greece is west of Iran. It could be that Grecia was then more a general term used for the people of the West. So the West could be meant. So the goat could be a western country or the West as a whole. It could be a NATO country or NATO itself under the leadership the US or some of the NATO countries. Greece is a member of NATO. NATO or some of the NATO countries are at the moment involved in activities in countries of that area, in Iraq and in Afghanistan. And between these two countries, between Iraq and Afghanistan lies Iran.

The last part of chapter 8 of Daniel seems to describe antichrist quite well: a master of intrigue.

Now after having read Daniel 8 the following arrangement seems possible to me.

The goat might be the leader of a nation that is presently the only real world power. He strives for supremacy. As the leader of the mightiest nation he is already quite close to it. But he aims for more; he really wants to be the leader of everything - including God. So a great success might help. It might cause him to be recognized as saviour. He looks for something that might help. If he looks at Russia he sees a big nation - especially geographically big. The people there would like to be great again. They once were the second most powerful country in the world and they lost that status and to become that great again would please them very much. But the desire to win the whole world and rule does not seem to be there anymore. To deal with opposition inside the country the government is quite prepared to do what it finds necessary but it does not seem anymore to be busy everywhere destabilizing systems and trying to win influence and trying to establish their system of thinking. Military failures like Afghanistan seem to have taken the appetite for aggression against other nations. A similar situation we have in China. They have plenty of people and think that they have too many and therefore only allow one child per couple, so a war and the loss of life connected with it would not hurt too much. They attacked Tibet and conquered it. They also attacked neighbours like India and Vietnam, but the will to conquer did not seem to be there or the situation was not right. The situation after the recent revolts of the Tibetans shows that the Chinese are vulnerable when they are criticized in the World and they would like to show everybody how powerful they are and that not just on the economical side. But a really aggressive attitude and will to conquer does not seem to be present. A further option might be Iran. It is the right size; not as big and powerful like Russia or China. And it has plenty of evil intent. It supports diverse terrorist groups. It has repeatedly voiced its desire to wipe Israel off the map. So Iran might be a country that has enough criminal energy and could be lured into aggressive acts and then the great saviour could save the world from this menace. On 30. January 2009 I read a headline, "US president writes to the people of Iran." He seeks contact with Iran. A team of the US president works on the formulation of a letter: Washington wants to speak with the regime in Tehran - and not to overthrow it - is the message. So the official policy will be reconciliation. And the whole administration is geared for that and they will believe in this and follow it through. But there is a master of intrigue. There could be a situation like that about Poland in the year 1939. Ribbentrop and Moletov agreed to attack Poland and when that was done and Poland was divided between the two powers then the one attacked the other. But Hitler was not really the master of intrigue. He relied too much on sheer military power and even this fizzled out quite soon. The master of intrigue will have all aspect well in mind and will use the evil intent in a government like that of Iran to fall for the seemingly chance to become great and powerful and become the leader - at least in that region and among their religious affiliates. His extensive experience in deception will work well with people who are eager to become more powerful and who see a chance to achieve their goals.

The problem I see with Daniel chapter 8 is of course that the goat there mentioned is Grecia because that immediately lets one think of Alexander the Great and him conquering Persia. He lived from 356 BC to 323 BC and Daniel lived before that. The story of Daniel begins with Nebuchadnezzar conquering Jerusalem and that was about the year 605 BC and Daniel then served several Babylonian kings and also the ones that followed them, until about 536 BC. His vision of the ram and the he-goat he had about 551 BC, so about 200 years before Alexander.

So Daniel's vision of the ram and the he-goat could refer to Alexander being the he-goat. The reference to the end - that this vision refers to the end - does not seem to support the idea that Alexander conquering the Persian Empire is the theme of the vision. But it is quite possible that both times are incorporated in this vision, the time of Alexander and also the time of the end. In the description of the vision itself the goat is mentioned in Daniel 8:8 the last time. It says there:

Therefore the goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

So this could very well be a description of what happened after Alexander's death. And what follows, verses 9 to 12 - the end of the vision - could describe times from the Geek empire to the Roman Empire and the Western world in general.

The problem with Alexander being the he-goat is the way he came to Persia - "touched not the ground" (Daniel 8:5). This not touching the ground seems to refer to modern warfare using planes and rockets and space installations. And it also says in Daniel 8:5 that the he-goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth or crossing the whole earth. This also does not seem to point to the country of Greece - as it was at the time of Alexander the Great or as we know it now. There is now only one country between Greece and Iran and that is Turkey. Turkey today is a quite strong military power and is also a member of NATO and both countries, Greece and Turkey, are, despite of being neighbours and in the same military alliance, not real friends, so Greece might avoid getting into conflict with Turkey and might go around it but it seems unlike that it would have to cross the whole earth.

So may be the future will explain everything. But it might be good idea to keep watching the ram and the he-goat.

The use of the two words ram and goat might also indicate that the ram (a sheep) is a religious country and the goat is a power that wants to eradicate religion. The war against God at the end will probably start with attacking all kinds of religious set-ups. When they have been dealt with the war will turn to the people who are really spiritual and who really belong to God. So this could be an indication that this conflict between the ram and the he-goat is taking place rather in the early stages.


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